Meko A-100 для Израиля?

Natan

 
korveta_GAWRON.jpg


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4160683&c=FEA&s=CVS

Israel Eyes Locally Built Warship
Drops LCS In Favor of German Design
By barbara opall-rome
Published: 29 June 2009


TEL AVIV - In a radical revamp of its surface fleet modernization program, the Israel Navy has shelved long-held plans to purchase Lockheed Martin-produced Littoral Combat Ships (LCS), as well as a fallback option involving corvetees built by Northrop Grumman.

Instead, sources say, the Navy is pushing to establish a combat shipbuilding industry through customized, locally built versions of a German corvette design.

Now in an exploration phase, the concept calls for a stretched, approximately 2,200-ton version of the Meko A-100 built by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the Hamburg-based consortium building two Dolphin-class submarines for the Israel Navy. Countries that are building or now operating the 1,650-ton German-designed corvette include Malaysia and Poland.

Defense and industry sources said Navy discussions with TKMS about a possible licensed co-production deal began in January and have steadily expanded to involve Israel's Ministry of Defense, Treasury, relevant lawmakers and industry executives.

Under the plan, at least two ships would be produced at Israel Shipyards in Haifa, with state-owned Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) a likely candidate for lead systems integrator. Each ship, and anticipated options for follow-on builds, would be integrated "with the maximum amount of local capabilities specifically designed to our operational requirements," said an Israel Navy flag officer.

"One of the things we put on the table is how to vector our urgent operational needs into a project that can support local industry," the officer said. "We believe a strong case can be made for making this into a national project that fosters self-sufficiency and provides all the economic benefits that come with creating a military shipbuilding industry."

In an interview earlier this month, the senior naval officer said the revamped acquisition concept was driven by the prohibitive price tag of its preferred LCS-I (Israel) option.

Military, defense and industry sources here noted that since the Navy began pursuing LCS, unit costs surged from $220 million to $375 million to current U.S. Navy estimates, presented to the U.S. Congress in May, of $637 million. And while U.S. Navy and Lockheed Martin officials repeatedly maintained that rising U.S. costs for the full multimission system would have only a marginal impact on the Israeli program, which focused primarily on HM&E (hull, mechanical and electrical) equipment, experts here concluded otherwise.

10 Years of Study, No Deal

The naval officer acknowledged frustration at the millions of dollars and nearly a decade of study invested by Israel, the U.S. government and prime contractor Lockheed Martin to adapt the 3,300-ton system to local requirements.

"As much as we sought commonality with the U.S. Navy, it became much, much more expensive than planned. At the end of the day, we had no choice but to face the fact that, for us, it was unaffordable," he said.

When asked about the status of the Israeli LCS program, Fred Moosally, president of Lockheed Maritime Systems and Sensors, replied, "Israel decided they didn't need any more work in that area."

Similarly, Israeli naval experts concluded that a Northrop Grumman-proposed package for two Sa'ar-5Bs - an approximately 2,300-ton design based on the service's current operational Sa'ar-5 fleet - also exceeded projected budgets.

U.S. and Israeli sources said rough estimates for each Sa'ar-5B were about $450 million; but HM&E unit costs could have been reduced by more than $100 million had the Navy conducted a contract design.

"When Northrop Grumman makes a fixed-price offer, it's the result of an organized and serious process that allows the company to honor all of its commitments," a company representative said. "Without conducting a contract design - which eliminates most of the uncertainties that drive up price - NG couldn't offer the unit costs we all believed we could have delivered to the Israel Navy."

In a Feb. 12 letter, the director of naval procurement at MoD's purchasing mission in New York informed U.S. parties of the prospective change in acquisition strategy. "In the event this option turns out to be more suitable both in terms of our operational and budgetary requirements, the [multimission ships] will be built in Israel."

High-Risk Program

Despite widespread interest in the Navy-spearheaded effort, huge budgetary, political and technical uncertainties still threaten the ambitious program, sources here warn.

Assuming the customized Meko-100 meets naval requirements, and that MoD can conclude a deal with TKMS and the German government that allows Israel to leverage its investment beyond the planned domestic buy, it remains unclear how Israel intends to fund the program.

Unlike most major military acquisitions, which are based on U.S.-built platforms and funded through U.S. military grant aid, Israel will have to fund the bulk of the estimated $600 million program on its own.

"We're looking at all kinds of funding options, which do not necessarily have to come from MoD or [U.S. Foreign Military Financing] FMF accounts," another senior naval officer said. "If the political leaders determine that this is a critical national program, then it's reasonable to expect significant funding to come from the Treasury."

A Finance Ministry official confirmed that experts from the two ministries are examining how the establishment of a military shipbuilding industry would concretely contribute to the Israeli economy.

Once the two ministries can agree on benchmarks, he said, more detailed discussions will begin over how, if at all, the Treasury can contribute some advanced funding.

"The idea is to find a formula whereby the Treasury can provide upfront funding in the form of a no-interest loan to MoD," an industry executive in Tel Aviv said.

Merkava-Based Funding Model

Meanwhile, Navy and civilian defense officials have started to explore ways in which U.S. FMF funding can be applied to the program.

U.S. regulations allow Israel to convert some 26 percent of its annual aid into shekels to finance local projects. But most of those funds over the next several years already have been earmarked for high-priority programs, including the Barak-8 air and ship defense system and the MF-STAR multifunction radar planned for the new ships.

Sources here cite Israel's indigenous Merkava main battle tank as a prospective acquisition model. Although the tank is built in Israel from locally developed technologies and subsystems, hundreds of millions of FMF dollars have been used over the years to finance the program.

Items purchased with U.S. aid include steel, other raw materials and the German-designed diesel engine co-produced in the United States by General Dynamics Land Systems and MTU. MoD is exploring a similar U.S.-based co-production arrangement that would allow FMF funding of the Meko ship's MTU1168 engine, sources here said.

"It's doable," a Pentagon source said. "Direct Commercial Contract guidelines allow them to use FMF to fund U.S. content on non-U.S. platforms."

A U.S. export license official noted, however, that as with the export-restricted Merkava, U.S. content gives Washington control over export sales.

Christopher P. Cavas contributed to this report from Washington.
 
Симпатично. Останется только заменить оружие, радары и прочее на аналогичное нашего производства.
 

newsman

newsman на старом форуме
Израиль из экономии займется строительством боевых кораблей
http://www.waronline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=437755#437755

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=19096

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4160683
 
Или давление с целью снизить цену LCS.
Причина может быть и не в желании снизить цену. Да и с нынешней американской администрацией нельзя быть уверенным в своевременных поставках. Ведь дополнительную закупку вертолётов нам уже запретили.

http://www.snariad.ru/2009/07/01/ships/#more-10677

http://www.snariad.ru/2009/06/30/delay/#more-10675
 

Natan

 
Ведь дополнительную закупку вертолётов нам уже запретили.

Об этом запрете написали журналёры сославшись на анонимный источник, больше ничего об этом "запрете" нет.

"Запретили" можно будет писать, когда об этом будет сообщено официально.
 

vit

 
"Запретили" можно будет писать, когда об этом будет сообщено официально.
Когда объявят официально, поздно будет, к тому времени нужно будет уже найти другой источник получения (приобритения) вертолётов.
 
Сдать в утиль... Имхо - слишком большое водоизмещение... Эйлат - предел...
 

Олег Грановский

Модератор
Команда форума
Instead, sources say, the Navy is pushing to establish a combat shipbuilding industry through customized, locally built versions of a German corvette design.

Now in an exploration phase, the concept calls for a stretched, approximately 2,200-ton version of the Meko A-100 built by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the Hamburg-based consortium building two Dolphin-class submarines for the Israel Navy. Countries that are building or now operating the 1,650-ton German-designed corvette include Malaysia and Poland.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/meko/

The MEKO A family includes the 1,650t MEKO A-100 multi-purpose corvette and the 3,500t MEKO A-200 frigate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEKO

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82

Корвет — класс военных кораблей. ...

Водоизмещение 500-1600 тонн ...

В результате водоизмещение таких «катеров» доросло до 1200-1500 тонн и эти корабли стали называть «корветами»
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82

Фрегаты I класса имеют стандартное водоизмещение 4-5 тыс. т и более ...

Фрегаты II класса, имея меньшее водоизмещение (около 2000-4000 т) ...
Т.е. получается израильский MEKO A-100, если будет, влезает в категорию фрегатов?
 

alex

 
Израиль попросил Германию купить ему два корвета и подводную лодку

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/10/23/kriegsschiffe/



http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/957/671.html?hp=1&loc=4&tmp=3325
 
http://www.mignews.com/news/society/world/271009_192618_10300.html

Израиль покупает два корабля-невидимки
27.10 19:41 MIGnews.com

Израиль нуждается в двух корветах, которые смогли бы противостоять иранским подводным лодкам и сирийским кораблям в Средиземном море, а также для защиты важных стратегических прибрежных объектов, таких как электростанции и военно-морские базы. По мнению представителей израильской разведки, на которые ссылается портал DEBKAfile, именно эти элементы инфраструктуры могут оказаться наиболее уязвимы в случае развязывания региональной войны. Заказ был размещен в ходе двухдневного визита в Берлин начальника Генштаба ЦАХАЛа, генерал-лейтенанта Габи Ашкенази. На этой неделе он стал гостем немецкого верховного командования. Германия уже затратила 500 миллионов евро на строительство двух подводных лодок класса "Дельфин", ранее заказанных для израильских ВМС. Корветы также будут стоить несколько миллионов, но они уже готовы. Немецкие источники сообщают, что израильские просьба уже передана канцлеру Ангеле Меркель, решение остается за ней. Немецкий корвет, о котором идет речь – это 2,200-тонный корабль, имеющий 91 метр в длину и 13,4 метра в ширину. На его борту размещается экипаж из 94 человек, на палубе – средний вертолет и 24 системы вооружения - 16 пусковых установок класса "море-земля" и 8 противокорабельных систем, адаптированных под ракеты американского производства. Судно оснащено комплексом противоракетной обороны и автоматическими пушками. Корвет такого класса способен действовать в диапазоне 7.400 км и идти с максимальной скоростью в 30 узлов. Главные преимущества корвета для израильских ВМФ заключаются в огневой мощи и самом современном оборудовании, делающем корабль "невидимым" для радаров. Его крайне трудно обнаружить с помощью береговых или корабельных РЛС. Перед тем как заказывать военные корабли в Германии, израильтяне тщательно исследовали рынок: корабли американской компании Lockheed Martin оказались слишком дорогими - 600 миллионов за единицу. Тогда закупщики обратились к судостроителям из Гамбурга, компании Blohm and Voss. Согласно первоначальному плану субподрядчиком могла выступать Хайфская судоверфь, притом, что израильтяне устанавливали бы ряд оборудования, оружейные системы и электронику. Но в связи с нарастанием напряженности вокруг Ирана верховное командование Израиля решило провести укрепление морской обороны страны в кратчайшие сроки. Также было принято к сведению, что новое предложение вписывается в коалиционное соглашение нового правительства Ангелы Меркель, а именно в свертывание действий немецкого флота у берегов Ливана в рамках миротворческой миссии ООН. Поскольку немецкий флот будут постепенно выводиться, оттуда будут убирать и два вышеуказанных корвета, поэтому появляется возможность передачи их непосредственно Израилю вместо отправки обратно на базу в Германию.
 
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSGEE5AN12E20091125

TEL AVIV, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Israel plans to buy two warships from Germany rather than rival U.S.-made vessels and is negotiating with Berlin in the hope of clinching a discounted deal by year's end, Israeli officials said on Wednesday. They said the Meko corvettes' purchase would be pursued by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak when they visit the German capital on Nov. 30.

Built at ThyssenKrupp's (TKAG.DE) Blohm+Voss shipyards in Hamburg, the Meko costs around $300 million but Israel wants the German government to underwrite the sale. An official involved in the talks said Israel sought a discount of 20 to 30 percent.

If the Mekos are bought, Israel would plan to add as many as eight more of the ships to its fleet in the future. An Israeli official suggested that his country's battle-hardened reputation would serve as a useful endorsement for the German-made ship.
 
http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=4458174&c=FEA&s=CVS

Israel Seeks German Arms-Aid Deal 1B Euro Package To Include Surface Ships, Submarines

The Israeli-proposed arms-aid deal - to be discussed Jan. 18 in Berlin at a special joint meeting of the German and Israeli cabinets - involves an additional Dolphin diesel-electric submarine, torpedoes and two German-built warships. The ships - stretched, 2,200-ton versions of the Meko A-100 - are the Israel Navy's preferred alternative to the U.S.-built Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), which the service rejected last year as unaffordable because of cost growth. At first, Israel lobbied to build the German ships under license at home, with the Israeli Treasury footing initial costs to establish a local warship-building industry. But under the latest incarnation of the deal, Israel is proposing to build the ships in Germany, where they will be outfitted with Israeli radar and a comprehensive combat weapons suite. ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the Hamburg-based consortium building submarines for the Israeli Navy, is to be prime contractor, with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) the likely lead integrator. The proposed acquisition, Israeli defense and industry sources here say, depends not only on significant German funding, but on Washington's permission to use annual military aid to pay for raw materials, subsystems and engine parts destined for the non-U.S. ships. Altogether, U.S.-produced content could reach $200 million for the estimated $650 million, two-ship program, which the Navy hopes to fund with Foreign Military Financing (FMF). In parallel, the program will draw on so-called U.S. Offshore Procurement funding - the portion of annual aid authorized for conversion into local shekels - to outfit the ships with Israeli technologies.
 
А надо Израилю такая круть обстреливать папуасов? Это единиственное занятие кораблей в последние 37 лет. Для большой войны подлодки лучше. Для папуасов - что-нибудь устарелое с пушками побольше и прикрученными средствами от ПКР, броненосец береговой обороны, что-ли.
 

Олег Грановский

Модератор
Команда форума
А надо Израилю такая круть обстреливать папуасов? Это единиственное занятие кораблей в последние 37 лет. Для большой войны подлодки лучше. Для папуасов - что-нибудь устарелое с пушками побольше и прикрученными средствами от ПКР, броненосец береговой обороны, что-ли.
Нельзя расчитывать только на то, что придётся воевать только с папуасами.

ПЛ - конечно хорошо, но заменить надводные корабли всё равно не могут.
 

Natan

 
MEKO CSL для Израиля:
http://www.defence-guide.com/navy/military-products-and-services/mekoae-csl

2006100401a6esa.jpg


Israeli Navy Wants Stealth Corvettes

May 18, 2010

By David Eshel


Israel wants to acquire two corvettes that would permit missions beyond the Mediterranean and extend its fleet air defense capabilities. The navy was planning to purchase a variant of Lockheed Martin’s Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), but after an evaluation decided the vessel was too costly.

The navy is now interested in the Meko A-100 multimission corvette, built by Blohm and Voss, part of Germany’s Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) Group. For such a vessel to outperform the current Eilat class, Israel will probably opt for the latest stealth version known as the Meko CSL, which can be adapted to meet Israeli requirements for versatility, sensors and deck space. The CSL corvette is a modular vessel that can be rapidly configured for different missions.

Israel’s navy has been focused on defending the nation’s coastline and strategic shipping routes in the Mediterranean. Since Iran became the main supplier of weapons to Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza, intercepting arms-smuggling routes has redirected the mission of Israel’s naval forces to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. Israel’s reach in these areas was demonstrated by the recent transit of a Dolphin-class submarine and Saar 5 corvettes through the Suez Canal, en route to temporary deployments in the Red Sea.

The Meko CSL is 108 meters (354 ft.) long, with a beam of 21 meters and full-load displacement of 2,750 metric tons. Propulsion is by a combined diesel-and-gas/water-jet system that reaches 40 kt. Cruising range at 15 kt. is 3,500 nm., and endurance is 21 days. The vessel can put to sea with a crew of 75.

Armed with the Barak 8 extended-range air-defense system from Israel Aerospace Industries, the two CSLs are expected to become the world’s first air-defense corvettes. This will give the Israeli surface fleet independent air cover for the first time, enabling ships to deploy farther from home. With a large deck surface and conformal mast, the new vessel can be equipped with more missiles than the current Saar 5 and, importantly, its superstructure can mount Elta’s MF-Star radar. This 360-deg. phased-array radar supports simultaneous surface search operations and multiple antiaircraft, antimissile and surface-attack weapons. The vessel will also carry antisubmarine weapons and a helicopter. As with all Israeli purchases, an important issue is the integration of locally designed and produced electronic systems. The navy uses the Elbit/Elisra Aqua Marine integrated electronic support measures/electronic countermeasures warfare suite on its Saar 5 corvettes. It is expected that the Meko will include the latest advanced electronic warfare systems.

Another advantage of the vessel would be accommodating the navy’s robotic systems. The ship could become a support platform for unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned surface vessels and unmanned underwater vehicles, since it would have adequate deck space and launch and retrieval capabilities.


A major advantage of the Meko CSL design is stealth. By employing technologies developed for the latest German warships and Sweden’s Visby-class stealth corvettes, Meko designers reduced the ship’s infrared signature by 75% through elimination of the conventional uptakes. Exhaust gases are ducted through a horizontal system, cooled by sea water and expelled underwater. Smooth hull-plating and concealed deck equipment are other stealth enhancements from the Visby class. Other features include a water-jet propulsion system that reduces the wake, the use of composite (nonmagnetic) structures and advanced sensors. Research on the Visby-class vessels began in the 1990s by Swedish ship designer Kockums, now part of TKMS.

Israel regards its German shipbuilders as reliable suppliers. The Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werf of Kiel and Nordseewerke of Emden have delivered three Dolphin-class submarines to the navy, and two more are under construction. Each new sub reportedly includes an additional 10-meter section for installation of an air-independent propulsion system, which enables the vessel to remain submerged for several weeks.

Israel’s submarines are believed to be equipped with underwater-launched cruise missiles capable of striking land targets at long range. With such capability, Israel could possess a potential second strike option in a nuclear confrontation with Iran.

Should all go according to plan with its modernization program, the navy would become Israel’s second strategic arm after the air force.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/dti/2010/05/01/DT_05_01_2010_p30-218249.xml&headline=Israeli%20Navy%20Wants%20Stealth%20Corvettes
 
Нельзя расчитывать только на то, что придётся воевать только с папуасами.
Ну вот, опять папуасы приплыли.ИМХО надо 152 мм - обстреливать берег и топить суда такого размера.
 

newsman

newsman на старом форуме
Вспомнили что судоверфь принадлежит ОАЭ (точнее, с октября 2009 г. идёт процесс покупку значительной части акций верфи фирмой из ОАЭ):

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3910129,00.html
 
интересно как на это проект повлияет грядущее сокрашение военного бюджета германии. (в связи с кризисом в греции)

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=4698771&c=EUR&s=LAN

вроде бы немцы массированно собираются сокращать свой флот и ввс.
вряд ли у них теперь будет лишний миллиард для Израиля.
 
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